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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Mar 18, 2024 22:50:41 GMT
Read Revelation 5. John is located in the throne room (Rev 5:1). They are looking for someone worthy to open the seals for the scroll (Revelation 5:2). The scroll cannot be read until the seals are opened. The scroll likely announces the kingship and kingdom of Messiah Yeshua (Revelation 5:10). John weeps loudly (Revelation 5:4). Out of all of the death and suffering John saw in Revelation, this is the time that he weeps, when no one is found worthy to open the scroll. Why?!?
John knows two things. Yeshua is worthy and he should be in the throne room, but Yeshua is not in the throne room where he is supposed to be after his ascension. John is overwhelmed with the fact that Yeshua is not where he is supposed to be. He believes something is horribly wrong. Why is Yeshua not yet ascended to the throne room? He weeps uncontrollably.
Suddenly Yeshua arrives, looking as a Lamb “as though it had been slain.” (Revelation 5:6) John was taken back in time to witness Yeshua beginning to open the scrolls in 30 CE, the year of his ascension, as a “Lamb standing, as though it had been slain” and “ascended” right into the throne room. John was blessed to see that occur.
Then the question is “how many seals did Yeshua open in 30 CE.” The Biblical pattern is 4:3, so that is most likely. But, there are more clues. Seal 1 is often believed to be the AC. John stated that the spirit of the AC was “already in the world.” (1 John 4:3) This is not to say we are not expecting the AC to arrive, this is to say that the AC process started in 30 C.E., the rejection of YHWH’s Messiah and the Torah that the Messiah taught and practiced as an example for us.
When we read Matthew 24, we see that war, death, pestilence, destroyed currencies (hyperinflation), are all part of the last 2,000 years and consistent with seals 1-4. However, maybe Messiah only opened the first seal in the first century? We do not yet know for certain. Regardless, it does at least appear to be a near certainty that the process of opening the seals began in 30 C.E. We are currently on seal 5 (waiting period)and waiting for seal 6 (arrival of Messiah Yeshua just before the 7th Trumpet), the 7th seal (allows for Messiah Yeshua to reign as king) and finally the 7th (last) trumpet, in which the resurrection occurs, Messiah takes reign, and the wrath and judgment is announced to begin, in which the bowls of wrath will follow.
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Post by kolanwright on Mar 21, 2024 20:19:00 GMT
Interesting thought, I can see the possibility that we are on seal 5. Since, the sixth seal is broken (as seen in Matthew 24) after the abomination of desolation and great tribulation that would mean we are waiting for the abomination of desolation. This would work as well. I think a large challenge of the first 5 seals is when will we know they have started. Is there any event we can point to? Daniel 10 and 11 or maybe something with a possible third temple? So a reading of the first 5 seals starting in 30 CE is interesting. I like it because it also satisfies some of preterism, it could be the first seal was broken around 70 CE. I have always questioned how would we know when the first 5 seals would be broken. There have always been wars, famine, and disease. Christians have been martyred from the earliest days. What in the world would suddenly change to say "Oh the first seal is broken" or "oh the 4th seal is broken" So I like this as pattern for the last 2000 years.
However, seal 6 does not seem like the return of Jesus. The return of Jesus is an event in Matthew 24. There is a sign of the son of man and he comes on the clouds. That happens just before the 7th trumpet in Revelation 10 (Sign-rainbow, on the clouds, face like the sun, swears by Him who lives forever (only God does that), and he stands on the land and the sea.
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Post by beckywc on Mar 22, 2024 0:20:07 GMT
Who are the 24 Elders? Are they human in nature or Spirit Beings?
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Post by kolanwright on Mar 25, 2024 0:29:52 GMT
Most people think the 24 elders are some combination of OT fathers and prophets (ie Abraham, Moses, Isaiah) plus NT disciples. They are typically mentioned separately from the four living creatures and angels.
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Post by beckywc on Mar 26, 2024 18:23:33 GMT
Are they in their resurrected bodies?
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lucy
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by lucy on Mar 26, 2024 18:47:02 GMT
All previously alive humans are in a spirit form right now. At the first ressurection, the "dead in Messiah" rise first, then those who are still alive, follow right behind them, as in 1 Thess 4:13-17
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glen
Junior Member
Posts: 54
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Post by glen on Apr 12, 2024 20:05:33 GMT
I had always believed that the first 4 seals would happen during the entire 7 year period, but progressively get worse. The 5th seal was near the very end, since they were wondering when God was going to pour out His vengeance on the earth. And the 6th seal takes place after the the tribulation period.
But, now that you've brought up the idea that the first 3 1/2 years have already been fulfilled, that kind of puts a little wrinkle in my beliefs. If you're right then it's quite possible that the first seal has been opened, but I don't think the 3rd seal has been opened and won't be opened until we get into the great trib. If what I've read is true, then the bible says that an average days wages will only be enough to buy food for one person for one day. With all that the WEF and other world organizations are doing, we'll be there in a few years.
Also, I've come to the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls are like separate overlays. For all us old folks who have used overhead projectors, you know what I'm talking about. So if you put all 3 overlays on top of each other, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl would all line up, they are all the same event; the great and terrible day of the Lord in which the resurrection/rapture, battle of Armageddon and restoration of Israel take place. If you look at what happens during each event you can see it quite well. This is because Revelation is not linear in it's reading, but topical.
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Post by insearchoftruth on Apr 13, 2024 2:19:22 GMT
“I had always believed that the first 4 seals would happen during the entire 7 year period, but progressively get worse. The 5th seal was near the very end, since they were wondering when God was going to pour out His vengeance on the earth. And the 6th seal takes place after the the tribulation period. But, now that you've brought up the idea that the first 3 1/2 years have already been fulfilled, that kind of puts a little wrinkle in my beliefs. If you're right then it's quite possible that the first seal has been opened, but I don't think the 3rd seal has been opened and won't be opened until we get into the great trib. If what I've read is true, then the bible says that an average days wages will only be enough to buy food for one person for one day. With all that the WEF and other world organizations are doing, we'll be there in a few years. Also, I've come to the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls are like separate overlays. For all us old folks who have used overhead projectors, you know what I'm talking about. So if you put all 3 overlays on top of each other, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl would all line up, they are all the same event; the great and terrible day of the Lord in which the resurrection/rapture, battle of Armageddon and restoration of Israel take place. If you look at what happens during each event you can see it quite well. This is because Revelation is not linear in it's reading, but topical.” I am old school too. I see the same projector overlays as you. In the end, things will come quickly in succession. I believe each layer may be happening in their own sequential order, simultaneously with the other layers running in their order overlapping at times. There are battles being fought in both the natural and supernatural so it makes sense there is overlap. |
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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Apr 16, 2024 17:57:26 GMT
Also, I've come to the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls are like separate overlays. For all us old folks who have used overhead projectors, you know what I'm talking about. So if you put all 3 overlays on top of each other, the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl would all line up, they are all the same event; You would be rather close to what we would teach with what you just said...we would suggest just a slight adjustment based on some patterns. For example, here is one of them that might be worth considering: THE 77 AND 7 PATTERN OF GENESIS 4
The scroll that is sealed with seven seals is eventually unrolled and read (Revelation 6-8), which likely lists the judgment and coming wrath against the nations and the reign of Messiah Yeshua being made effective. This is why the 777 of Lamech (Genesis 4:24), is distinguished as a 77 (for Lamech) and a 7 (for Cain))(see part 2). That is the pattern of 7 seals and 7 Trumpets as the 77 and then the 7 as the seven bowls (wrath) that comes after the 7th trumpet. There is more. The 77 is connected to Lamech and concludes the 3.5 years in which we are protected (Greater Exodus -> Ezekiel 20/Revelation 12/Jeremiah 16:14-15). The two wives of Lamech mean "beautiful (Adah) protection (Zillah)" and this is the time in which the "beautiful" bride of Messiah is protected for 3.5 years, ending at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet (77), connecting to Lamech. Following this, is the seven bowls of wrath, and wrath is connected to Cain (7) and we enter the bridal "chambers" (Isaiah 26) for a 3+7=10 on the 3rd and 7th day. The sixth seal is the arrival of the "clouds" that will contain the angels and Messiah Yeshua. The "clouds" will darken the skies. The world will panic because they know the wrath is near, but we will know what is happening and will be expecting it on that day (see part 2). This could occur just before Yom Teruah 2030, which would be the 6th day of the week. On Yom Teruah 2030 the 7th seal is broken scroll is read, as there is silence for half an hour, announcing kingship and wrath of Messiah, and the 7th trumpet sounds and the first resurrection occurs and the 7 bowls of wrath are poured out. Thus we are present for the 77 (Seals/Trumpets - Lamech) but not the 7 (Bowls/wrath - Cain). This 7/7 and 7 of the seals/trumpets and bowls will also occur on the Biblical macro timestamp of 777 (part 2). Those who are connected to the 3.5 years leading to the "77" of the seals/trumpet are those who are forgiven. Those that are connected to conclusion of the 3.5 years and the "7" (wrath) are not forgiven. This moment of the arrival of the kingdom and being forgiven (77) connects to the Messiah's parable: Matthew 18:21-23Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. |
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Post by t4light on Apr 16, 2024 21:23:34 GMT
We are currently on seal 5 (waiting period)and waiting for seal 6 (arrival of Messiah Yeshua just before the 7th Trumpet), I’ve found your work excellent to date but find this statement concerning. If we cannot explain the fulfilment of the first four seals with clarity and certainty, how can we state we are awaiting the sixth seal? This feels like a leap. Do you have any further commentary on this? Thanks again for your work to date. |
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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Apr 16, 2024 21:50:25 GMT
We are currently on seal 5 (waiting period)and waiting for seal 6 (arrival of Messiah Yeshua just before the 7th Trumpet), I’ve found your work excellent to date but find this statement concerning. If we cannot explain the fulfilment of the first four seals with clarity and certainty, how can we state we are awaiting the sixth seal? This feels like a leap. Do you have any further commentary on this? Thanks again for your work to date. Good question. This is all simply speculation and seals 1-4 are not of high importance from our perspective, nor would we assign this position to a high degree of confidence. Additional commentary would include: The spirit of the antichrist has existed since 30 C.E. (first seal). People have been slaying each other since 30 C.E. (second seal). Monetary inflation has been occurring since 30 C.E. (third seal). Pestilence, famine, and war has been occurring since 30 C.E. and it would not be surprising to learn that in the last 2,000 years most deaths would be attributed to these causes. These are things we already know. We would suggest that these things cannot be explained with clarity because the first four seals are intentionally vague prophecies because they occur over a span of 2,000 years and resemble the exact same vague prophecies that the Messiah referred to between that were to occur between 30 C.E. and 27 C.E. (Abomination of Desolation) Matthew 24:4-13And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. (Seal 1 - Spirit of the Antichrist - 1 John 4:3) 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places (Seals 2 & 4). All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come ( Seals 1 & 2). Thus, we would be at seal 5 and we are told to wait, which would be for 1960 years according to Ezekiel 4 and Daniel 9. This produces the familiar 4:3 pattern for the seals. We also see a 4:3 pattern for the seven trumpets (4 regular trumpets and 3 "woes" trumpets). For the "77" of Lamech we should see the same pattern for both. In this way we do and we do not see any contradictions, at least yet. We place this here for further testing. Likewise, the Messiah says "The end is not yet." In seal 5 we are told the day of vengeance is not yet, which we know is at the end (777, see part 2). It appears highly reasonable that the first four seals were opened in the first century, especially given what John observed in the Heavens and the clues as to "when" related to the seals. Is it definitive, no, but it appears to be the most plausible unless some solid contrary points could be brought forth. |
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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Apr 16, 2024 21:58:53 GMT
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Post by midnightwatcher on Apr 21, 2024 0:27:30 GMT
However, seal 6 does not seem like the return of Jesus. The return of Jesus is an event in Matthew 24. Matthew 24 and Revelation 6-7 are direct parallels. The Book of Revelation is written Semitically, not chronologically. There is recapitulation throughout the book. John writes about the Second Coming of Christ more than once (eg. Rev 6-7, Rev 10-11, Rev 14, Rev 19-20). Due to the Semitic style of apocalyptic literature that John uses, in addition to many of the specific details he provides for us all throughout Revelation, the seals, trumpets and vials cannot be sequential one after the other. Rather, they are lateral/parallel events or judgments whereby the seventh of each all end right around the same time in the eschaton — immediately after the tribulation. This is a view that is supported by many teachers and theologians. Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, for example, which is considered by many to be the standard conservative-evangelical work, write in their commentary that “the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials, are not consecutive, but parallel, and ending in the same consummation. They present the unfolding of God’s plans for bringing about the grand end under three different aspects, mutually complementing each other.” In fact, if you compare the trumpets and vials themselves together side by side, you’ll begin to see what appears to be a pattern that presents the trumpets and vials as two sides of the same coin whereby the trumpets are the cause, and the vials are the effect. Some claim that Rev 8:6 says the trumpets are blown after the 7th seal so it must be consecutive. At first glance it may appear that way to our more linear mindset, but we need to remember this is written in a Semitic style that isn’t always linear. It may seem odd to us (except maybe for fans of Christopher Nolan films) but it's something that we also find in the Genesis account regarding creation and is why some Bible skeptics claim there are two different creation accounts when in fact there is only one. There's recapitulation. In similar fashion, John is now doing a quick rewind to focus our attention upon something else that God is doing while the seals are being opened. John does not say "and after these things" or anything similar here to suggest consecutivity. While latter seals are being opened, “trumpet” judgments are being blown (the cause), and the end result of those judgments are later revisited and described as the vials of wrath (the effect). As for the 6th seal, I therefore view this as post-trib. Notice the markers we are given by John: Revelation 6:12-16, 7:1,9-14, "I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth ... And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!' ... After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth ... I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues ... he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation ...'" This parallels exactly what Jesus tells us in Matthew will happen immediately after the tribulation: Matthew 24:29-31, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." So immediately after the great tribulation in Matthew 24 we have: 1) Sun darkens, 2) Moon darkens, 3) Stars "fall", 4) A fearful earth mourns at the sight of the Son of Man (Jesus) coming in power and glory, 5) Christ's angels gather the elect from the four corners of the earth In Revelation 6-7 we have: 1) The sun becomes black, 2) The moon darkens like blood, 3) Stars "fall", 4) A fearful earth trembles at the sight of the coming wrath of the Lamb (Jesus), 5) A great multitude gathered from the four winds of earth just came out of the great tribulation Coincidence? Not in my mind. In fact, all of Matthew 24 is a direct parallel with Revelation 6-7. Ergo, the 6th seal is without a doubt post-tribulational imho. Here is my view of the seals and when they were opened (or at least when fulfilment started to come to fruition in history. It wasn't overnight). I also believe as Messiah 2030 believes, that we are now well into the 5th seal. midnightwatcher.com/2013/05/02/unsealed-a-closer-look-at-revelation-6-and-the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse/ |
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