josie
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Post by josie on Aug 15, 2024 12:51:54 GMT
If the beast system and antichrist are Islamic, how are they going to deceive even the elect if possible? Or maybe the antichrist spirit has been at work throughout the church age and has already deceived so many Christians. What if the deceived are those who worship on Sunday and don't follow the Biblical feasts? Is Sunday worship the mark of the beast? Will Sunday worshippers see the kingdom of God?
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FX
Junior Member
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
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Post by FX on Aug 15, 2024 14:06:16 GMT
Shalom Josie Some will, some won’t. Abba Yahweh looks at our hearts first and foremost. There are genuine saved believers in Sunday churches, who do not know better. Because of their lack of knowledge, a lot of Sunday worshipers will most probably be saved, but they may be least in the Kingdom of God, because they did not practice and teach Torah (see Matthew 5.17-20). Actually, the true elects won’t be deceived. This is a form of deception, for sure, since this is not what the Bible commands. This is what the Adventists would have us to believe, but it’s not so! First and foremost, the mark of the beast is spiritual. Time will tell, but if the antichrist comes from Islam, the mark of the beast could very well be the allegiance and conversion to Islam. Hope this helps. Be blessed, FX
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Post by lookingup on Sept 5, 2024 12:23:36 GMT
This is what the Adventists would have us to believe, but it’s not so! First and foremost, the mark of the beast is spiritual. Time will tell, but if the antichrist comes from Islam, the mark of the beast could very well be the allegiance and conversion to Islam. Hope this helps. Be blessed, FX Here are some thoughts on this: The "mark" is propbably directly related to one of the commandments of God because Rev 14:11-12 contrasts those who took the mark to those who keep the commandments: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Consider Daniel 3: Shadrach, Meshack and Abneggo were under the decree to worship the golden image. They refused to break the second commandment about not bowing down and worshipping idols. Consider Daniel 6: Daniel was under a decree to pray only to the king of Babylon. He refused to break the first commandment about not having any other gods before Me. These appear to foreshadow the future mark of the beast- a decree to break one of God's commandments. Commandments 1-4 are the commandments directly related to our relationship with Him. The fourth commandment does seem to be the most logical candidate for a future decree. Once someone is aware that the Roman church "changed" the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday, and they choose to observe Sunday rather than the Sabbath, this is an act of recognizing the authority of the man over the authority of God. This IS a spiritual issue. Daniel 2-7 is a written in a chiastic structure: Daniel 2 and 7 outline the series of 4 kingdoms: the rise of spiritual Babylon. Daniel 3 and 6 are decrees of false worship. Daniel 4 and 5 are the fall of BabylonA parallel with true versus false worship preceding the fall of Babylon is found in Rev. 14: 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.The fourth commandment seems to be alluded to in Rev. 14:7, above. Further evidence is that a harlot in the Old Testament always described God's people in state of apostacy and idolatry- it never was used to represent a heathen religion. The harlot in Revelation is "Babylon the Mother of Harlots". Rome considers herself to be the mother church and there are many protestant churches that unknowlingly keep her pagan traditions: Sunday observance, Halloween, etc. Side note: Ever wonder what rabbits and painted eggs have to do with the death and resurrection of the Messiah? Or, why do we not celebrate on Passover and Firstfruits? Those feasts coincided with the exact days of His death and resurrection.
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FX
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Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
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Post by FX on Sept 5, 2024 15:56:31 GMT
Shalom Looking up, You should forget about Rome or the Catholic Church being the harlot of the book of Revelation. By biblical definition, this is just impossible! John is pretty clear in 1 John 2:22, where he speaks about the Antichrist and how he denies both the Father and the Son: "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22, NIV) This verse identifies the spirit of the antichrist as one that denies the relationship and divinity of both God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son. There are many reproches we could make to the Catholic Church with all its pagan practises, but one thing for sure: it does not deny the Father nor the Son. Think about it! There are plenty of other reasons as well. If you want to understand what's coming in the near future, you would do well to adjust your compass looking East, the Middle East. That is where everything is set to take place. If you wanna dig deeper, a good place where to start would be: midnightwatcher.comBe blessed!
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Post by lookingup on Sept 8, 2024 13:02:57 GMT
John is pretty clear in 1 John 2:22, where he speaks about the Antichrist and how he denies both the Father and the Son: "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22, NIV) This verse identifies the spirit of the antichrist as one that denies the relationship and divinity of both God the Father and Jesus Christ, His Son. The Papacy does deny Christ and the Father in that they say that grace is dispensed by the Pope through his "Treasury of Merit" (Good works of Jesus, Mary, "Saints"), they claim the Pope is Vicar of God, the Head of the Church, and many other blasphemous statements. It is a counterfeit that appears to be Christian but in reality, denies Christ. The Roman church fits the Biblical attributes of Babylon. Islam does not: Daniel chapters 2, 7, and 8 show the sequence of 4 literal kingdoms that precede the Little Horn: 1. Babylon 2. Medo-Persia 3. Greece 4. Rome The Roman Church directly descended from the series of kingdoms in Daniel. Islam did not not come after Rome, the Roman Church did. Revelation, Daniel, and elsewhere describe an end time spiritual Babylon. All of the attributes of Babylon, Little Horn/Beast fit the Roman Catholic Church Papacy: - Makes war with the saints: During the dark ages, millions were slaughtered during the Inquisitions in Europe.
- Blasphemous: "“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, ” Cities Petrus Bertanoushe
- Seeks to change times and laws: The Papacy "changed" Sabbath to Sunday, Passover to Easter, etc. Islam did not do that.
- She is a Harlot: Every time Harlot is used to describe a people in the Bible, it is always when God's people adopt pagan idolatry. Islam does not fit that.
- Rules over the kings of the earth: World leaders seek audience with the Pope at the Vatican, not with Islamic leaders.
In Daniel Chapter 1, Nebuchadnezzar captured the "vessels" from the Temple of the true God and carried them off into the temple of his gods. Spiritual Babylon has captured many of those who seek to follow the true God, and led them to idolatrous worship in this counterfeit "Christian" religion.
Again, the Roman Church fits all of the typology, not Islam.
More on making war with the saints: The Roman Church has a military order called the Jesuits. The leader of this order has the title "General". Their primary objective is to cause the world to forget what was widely known during the Protestant Reformation: the Papacy is the spirit of antichrist. They go to great lengths to cause confusion and to try to come up with alternative theories to divert attention away from the truth. According to their oath, they are authroized to lie and kill to achieve their goals.
Yes, I do think that Islam is a sword that has a role in end time events however it is not Babylon.
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FX
Junior Member
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Posts: 95
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Post by FX on Sept 8, 2024 16:29:07 GMT
Shalom Lookingup, Whatever the Roman Catholic Church Papacy did in the past is irrelevant. In order to fit the Biblical description of the harlot of Revelation, the Roman Catholic Church Papacy MUST become the future entity that will behead believers during the 3.5 years of the great tribulation. So if Messiah 2030's chronology is correct, you want us to believe that in just a few years, the Roman Catholic Church Papacy will turn into a global monster, calling for Catholics from all around the world to take the sword and kill believers. Are you serious? Even if Pope Francis were to call for Catholics to turn on their Christian neighbors and kill them, what percentage of them would comply? Come on, give us a guess!
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Post by lookingup on Sept 17, 2024 12:23:20 GMT
There are many reproches we could make to the Catholic Church with all its pagan practises, but one thing for sure: it does not deny the Father nor the Son. Think about it! Sept 15, 2024, the Pope said this: "What Francis said was: Tutte le religioni sono un cammino per arrivare a Dio. “All religions are path[way]s to reach God.” Msgr. Christopher Washington of the Secretariat of State’s English Section did an admirable job rendering the off-the-cuff remark in the moment, offering: “ Every religion is a way to arrive at God.”" source:https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2024/09/15/what-and-why-did-pope-francis-say-about-religions-as-paths-to-god/ Is this not a denial that Yeshua is the only way, truth and life and no man comes to the Father except through him?
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Post by lookingup on Sept 17, 2024 12:47:33 GMT
Are you serious? Even if Pope Francis were to call for Catholics to turn on their Christian neighbors and kill them, what percentage of them would comply? Come on, give us a guess! Let's be respectful to one another please. This is a healthy discussion. Thank you! The patterns and events of the past typify the end times. We see it over and over in scripture. In the past, the Papacy used the kings of the earth to do their dirty work. Likewise, in the future, would it be unreasonable to think that the kings of the earth, who now bow to the Pope, would be the ones who institute laws contrary to God's commandments, at the behest of the Papacy? time.com/3917075/pope-francis-vladimir-putin/
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Post by lookingup on Sept 17, 2024 12:55:11 GMT
You say that the antichrist must deny Christ, correct? I agree. He also blasphemes God and claims to be God.
“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX
“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism
He changes times and laws..
“The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ.” Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. ‘The Pope can modify divine law.’ Ferraris’ Ecclesiastical Dictionary
“The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed…the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority.” Canon and Tradition, p. 263
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FX
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Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Posts: 95
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Post by FX on Sept 17, 2024 15:33:43 GMT
Shalom Looking up,
If you want to have your eschatology right, you should set your compass toward the Middle East, not toward Rome.
This whole Roman paradigm lies on the following Scriptures:
- Daniel 2: The dream of Nebuchadnezzar's statue - Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of the four beasts - Daniel 9: The people of a coming Prince - Revelation 17: The city of seven hills
Taken in context, these passages point to the emergence of an Islamic empire in the Middle East in the end times.
Blessings
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kolop
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Posts: 26
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Post by kolop on Sept 17, 2024 23:12:08 GMT
Taken in context, these passages point to the emergence of an Islamic empire in the Middle East in the end times. Given the involvement of Russia with Iran, is it possible that the Russian Orthodox church could end up being entangled with the Islamic empire? I'm not claiming it will be - just thinking outside the box.
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FX
Junior Member
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Posts: 95
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Post by FX on Sept 18, 2024 3:17:26 GMT
I do not think so. Whatever global alliances exist right now, it's important to understand that the end-time beast kingdom is not only limited in terms of geography (i.e.: Middle-East), but is comprised of 10 entities. Regarding these entities, we have always been taught it would involve kingdoms or nations, but it may very well be entities like Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, and other local Muslim terrorist groups. Please note that none of these entities have anything to do with the Pope, Rome, or Christianity. Christians and Jews alike in the Middle East and Israel are going to be slaughtered by Muslims, who, by the way, do not differentiate between Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants! To them, they are all Christian 'koufar... If you want a sound biblical study on the end time paradigm in order to weight the arguments between Rome versus Islam, here's a very good place where to start: joelstrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MIdeast-Beast-Master-File-Joel-Richardson.pdfBe blessed!
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Post by truthseeker on Sept 18, 2024 12:41:11 GMT
New Jerusalem vs Old Jerusalem/Israel (or The Bride Versus the Harlot) Revelation is full of “yin/yang” style contrasts, including the Lamb versus the Dragon, the Father’s name versus the beast’s name on people’s foreheads, and, here, the image of the bride versus the harlot, or, New Jerusalem versus Babylon/Old Jerusalem/Israel. It is not a great leap from the apparent background of Jeremiah 3 (which includes Yahweh’s “divorcing” of Israel for harlotry) in our Babylon passage to the estimation that the harlot in Revelation is being dismissed by God as an unfit wife for Christ. There is clearly a deliberate literary contrast present between the bride of chapter 21 and the harlot of chapters 17–18 in the language of their respective (and closely parallel) introductions, characterizations, and environments.
Jerusalem/Israel’s rejection of her Messiah, who had come as her husband, sets the stage for the Messiah to take another bride. And if this new bride is called the “New” Jerusalem, a likely corollary is that the former, unfaithful woman is the Old Jerusalem/Israel This ties the two sections together perfectly and logically, and suddenly creates a very natural harmony of purpose and flow of thought for the Apocalypse in broad strokes. Old Jerusalem/Israel/Babylon then represents the current commonwealth of Israel (Judah & Ephraim, the two stick/trees - all believers) that have gone apostate (sunday worship, christmas, easter etc celebrations). Come out of her my people (the manchild/the elect). The remnant goes through the greater exodus (the woman of rev 12). The beast is then 10 muslim nations that the harlot rides. Israel will initially defeat them (Hamas, Hezbollah etc), she is riding that beast at the moment. But ultimately will be defeated by them.
Anyway this is just a theory that I am currently exploring. Not everything fits, but then again, I think that Revelation is all symbolic. Some people pick some items as literal and some as symbolic to fit their point of view. The horses are symbolic and then the saints under the altar are not, etc.
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Post by lookingup on Sept 19, 2024 12:05:22 GMT
Shalom Looking up, If you want to have your eschatology right, you should set your compass toward the Middle East, not toward Rome. This whole Roman paradigm lies on the following Scriptures: - Daniel 2: The dream of Nebuchadnezzar's statue - Daniel 7: Daniel's vision of the four beasts - Daniel 9: The people of a coming Prince - Revelation 17: The city of seven hills Taken in context, these passages point to the emergence of an Islamic empire in the Middle East in the end times. Blessings Shalom On the contrary, these all culminate in Papal Rome! 1 Babylon (Head) (Winged Lion) 2 Medo-Persia (Chest/arms) (Bear) 3 Greece (Abdomen/Thigh) (Leopard with 4 heads) 4 Pagan Rome(Legs) (Terrible Iron Toothed Beast) 5 Papal Rome (Feet of clay/iron) Peter knew that Spiritual Babylon was Rome. He was certainly not talking about a church in literal ancient Babylon... 1 Peter 5:13 "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." Rome is the city of seven hills. Aventine Hill (Latin: Collis Aventinus; Italian: Aventino) Caelian Hill (Collis Caelius, originally the Mons Querquetulanus; Celio) Capitoline Hill (Mons Capitolinus; Campidoglio) Esquiline Hill (Collis Esquilinus; Esquilino) Palatine Hill (Collis or Mons Palatinus; Palatino) Quirinal Hill (Collis Quirinalis; Quirinale) Viminal Hill (Collis Viminalis; Viminale) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_RomeIn Daniel, the little horn speaks great things and blasphemies against the Most High. Actual quotes from the little horn: “Not the Creator of Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3,-but the Catholic Church can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days.” S. C. Mosna, Storia della Domenica, 1969, pp. 366-367 “The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church.” American Sentinel, Father Enright, June 1893 “The Pope is of great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws… The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Ribliotheca, Papa, art. 2, translated
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Post by lookingup on Sept 28, 2024 23:26:47 GMT
Shalom Looking up, If you want to have your eschatology right, you should set your compass toward the Middle East, not toward Rome. I can't point the compass. It points me. 2 Thess. 3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. click link for image of pope on the throne between two cherubim
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