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Post by lukjungeberg12 on Apr 20, 2024 3:36:01 GMT
I'm confused as to how Revelation fits into the picture if there is only 3.5 years of tribulation. Also, I'm assuming the rapture happens before this?
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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Apr 20, 2024 21:31:40 GMT
What in particular are you struggling with in regards to revelation. Note that the only timelines in Revelation are 3.5 years in length, and there is a reason for that since there is only 3.5 years left of the 70 weeks.
WHEN IS THE RAPTURE?
The following assumes one has watched Messiah 2030 ~ The Prophetic Messianic Timeline parts 1-3.
The Great Tribulation period is 3.5 years (See part 3) and scripture is clear when we are "caught up."
-There were 3.5 years, and then Elijah was “caught up.”
-Messiah Yeshua’s ministry was 3.5 years and then he was “caught up.”
-The Two Witnesses will provide testimony for 3.5 years and then they will be “caught up.”
Consider the pattern there. Elijah then cried out "The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!"
Jude 1:14
It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
In part 1 and part 2 of our flagship "The Prophetic Messianic Timeline" series note where we place the "first resurrection" on the timeline throughout the whole series and all of the 52 prophecies and patterns that mandate it. The rapture and first resurrection are the same thing (1 Thessalonians 4/Revelation 20), and if parts 1-3 are watched again one will see that the first resurrection (rapture) is mentioned quite often.
According to the data in the film, the rapture and first resurrection cannot occur before Biblical year 6,000 / Jubilee 120. The rapture/resurrection happens AFTER two days, NOT BEFORE the third day.
During the 3.5-year tribulation, after we clearly see the abomination of desolation, those who are awake will take part in what is called the Greater or Second Exodus (Ezekiel 20/Revelation 12/Jeremiah 16:14-15) in which we will be protected for 3.5 years. Then the rapture (first resurrection) will occur at the Messiah's coming on Yom Teruah 2030 after the tribulation period and before the wrath. Wrath and tribulation are two different things with two different purposes. Tribulation is a call to repentance. Wrath is punishment for a lack of repentance. The two cannot and do not occur at the same time. Thus, the rapture is after the tribulation and before the wrath.
We are then taken into the "chambers" during the short period of wrath (bowls) following the first resurrection (Isaiah 26). The nations face judgment on Yom Kippur 2030. We exit the chambers and enter the land for the 1,000-year reign of Messiah Yeshua. Part 4 will cover this all in much greater detail.
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Post by midnightwatcher on Apr 20, 2024 23:26:56 GMT
I'm assuming the rapture happens before this? Here are a few study points to review. After each point the question we need to ask ourselves is, "What does this tell us?" * According to Revelation 20:4-5, the “First Resurrection” of the dead in Christ to eternal life only happens after tribulation, not before. If this resurrection is not before the tribulation then a rapture of the Church before the tribulation is impossible (1 Thess 4:16). What does this tell us? * The Church is explicitly told to expect tribulation right up until Christ’s glory is revealed (1 Pet 4:12-13). He does not reveal His glory until “immediately after the tribulation” (Matt 24:29-31). What does this tell us? * The “Blessed Hope” of the Church is eternal life that is actualized at Christ’s appearance. (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7, “In HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began … Looking for THAT BLESSED HOPE [eternal life], and the glorious appearing [epiphaneia] of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ… That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE.”) The "epiphaneia" only happens when "the lawless one" is destroyed by Christ "with the brightness [epiphaneia] of His coming" (2 Thess 2:8). What does this tell us? * Revelation is written Semitically, not chronologically. There is recapitulation throughout the book and John writes about the Second Coming of Christ more than once (eg. Rev 6-7, Rev 10-11, Rev 14, Rev 19-20) and the “rapture” of the Church is clearly outlined in Revelation 10 at the seventh and last trumpet, which is post-tribulational (cf. 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 10:7). What does this tell us? * The “wrath” that the Church is not appointed unto is the “orge” wrath only per the original Greek. The word “wrath” is mentioned 13 times in Revelation in English translations but the “orge” wrath is only mentioned 6 times and is always in a post-trib context (Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15). What does this tell us? * The marriage supper of the Lamb and the Church only takes place AFTER the Lord judges the “great whore” and avenges “the blood of his servants at her hand.” (cf. Rev 19:2). This is His “orge” wrath per above. What does this tell us? * In the Galilean wedding parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins in Matt 25, once the bridegroom comes the door is shut to the wedding feast. PERMANENTLY. No one can enter (Matt. 25:10-12). Jesus tells us in Luke 17:26-30 that as it was in the days of Noah and Lot, it will be the SAME when the Son of Man is revealed. When Noah entered the ark and God shut the door, the flood began on the SAME DAY and the destruction of those upon whom His wrath came began immediately (Luke 17:27), not 7 years later. On the SAME DAY that Lot departed Sodom, God rained down fire and brimstone from heaven and “destroyed them all.” Their destruction began immediately, not 7 years later. Likewise, once the rapture happens, the "orge" wrath of God begins on the SAME DAY and none can later be saved to take part in the marriage supper of the Lamb (which only happens AFTER the Lord judges the “great whore” and avenges “the blood of his servants at her hand” per Rev 19:2) -- but the pre-trib theory contradicts Christ’s words because we see a great multitude in Rev 7 “who come out of the great tribulation” that “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” What does this tell us? * Before the rapture, which Paul associates with the Day of the Lord, we will see Antichrist revealed (2 Thess. 2:3, “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the Day of the Lord and our gathering to Him] will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed …”). According to Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29 and Zech 14:1,7, the Day of the Lord is immediately after the tribulation. What does this tell us? * We are told by Christ in Luke 21:25-28 to watch for the post-trib “cosmic signs” and to be ready in Him so that we can escape all these things in “that Day.” Which day was Christ referring to? The Day of the Lord -- His return “immediately after the tribulation” in power and glory to destroy Antichrist (cf. Luke 21:25-36; Matt 24:29). What does this tell us? * When speaking about the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1, Paul uses the word “episynagōgē” (G1997), which is from the word “episynagō” (G1996) — the exact word that Christ used in Matt 24:31 regarding the gathering of the elect immediately after the tribulation. Paul is referring directly to Christ’s own teaching in the Olivet Discourse and connects the “watching” for the rapture with Jesus’ instructions for His disciples to be watching for His coming “immediately after the tribulation.” What does this tell us? |
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Post by lukjungeberg12 on Apr 22, 2024 15:01:26 GMT
Okay, would you be able to provide a timeline so I can visualize this? I am a visual learner and I think that would help it make more sense to me. Starting with the tribulation (abomination that causes desolation) and ending with the new heaven and new earth after the millennium. I would really appreciate it!
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Post by midnightwatcher on Apr 22, 2024 15:26:00 GMT
Have you had a chance the watch Part 1, 2 and 3 of the Messiah 2030 series?
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Post by lukjungeberg12 on Apr 22, 2024 16:10:53 GMT
Yes, this is the interpretation that I have cognitive dissonance with. I have always thought that the church would be raptured before the tribulation and that the things Jesus said was intended for the remaining people on Earth who were to be saved but stuck and forced to go through the tribulation. Does that make sense?
Also, if the tribulation starts in 2027, the temple must be built before then. Is there a way that this temple is already built but not seen? Or must it be where the Dome of the Rock is?
Finally, if I have the interpretation right... the wise will be taken up before God's wrath and the wicked will remain on the Earth to be destroyed. How will the earth be repopulated for the millenium?
Sorry for all the questions, this just really interests me and I really appreciate you sharing of your years of studies!!
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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Apr 22, 2024 16:38:04 GMT
Yes, this is the interpretation that I have cognitive dissonance with. I have always thought that the church would be raptured before the tribulation and that the things Jesus said was intended for the remaining people on Earth who were to be saved but stuck and forced to go through the tribulation. Does that make sense? Also, if the tribulation starts in 2027, the temple must be built before then. Is there a way that this temple is already built but not seen? Or must it be where the Dome of the Rock is? Finally, if I have the interpretation right... the wise will be taken up before God's wrath and the wicked will remain on the Earth to be destroyed. How will the earth be repopulated for the millenium? Sorry for all the questions, this just really interests me and I really appreciate you sharing of your years of studies!! That is because "teachers" made the rapture to be the solution for the tribulation instead of the solution for death. Here is something to consider. 1 Thessalonians 4 is the most often cited verse for the rapture, and even Paul, in context, teaches us that it is the first resurrection and rapture that is the means for us to see our dead loved ones again. Our "hope" is not that the rapture saves us from the tribulation, but saves us and our loved ones from death, and we get to see them again. We do not have to grieve for our dead loved ones as the rest of the world does: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. This will occur just before the wrath (not tribulation) 1 Thessalonians 1:10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. Tabernacle/TempleThat is correct. All prophecy seems to suggest that the temple (or perhaps tabernacle) is active again before end of spring 2027. It will be where the Dome of the Rock is currently located. Wrath
That is correct. The first resurrection happens just before the wrath (Isaiah 26). Most who go through the wrath will die, but not all. The 1,000 year reign will consist of those in resurrected/incorruptible bodies, residing in the land, and those in corruptible bodies, and will make up the nations. |
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Post by midnightwatcher on Apr 22, 2024 17:25:48 GMT
How will the earth be repopulated for the millenium? A very common question. Scripture is quite clear that there will be many Gentile survivors after His Second Coming. Remember, the Millennial Kingdom is not the eternal state. This is simply the earthly reign of Christ, and there will be a sheep and goat judgment of nations (peoples) which will separate the goats from the sheep, not of one national country from the other in the sense that we often think of when referring to nations in our modern vernacular. The word for “nations” is “ethnos” and refers to multitudes or groups of peoples, and is often translated as “Gentiles” or “heathens.” There are portions of Scripture that without a doubt tell us there will be Gentile populations around the world entering into the Millennial Kingdom: Isaiah 2:2-4, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. AND HE SHALL JUDGE AMONG THE NATIONS, AND SHALL REBUKE MANY PEOPLE: AND THEY SHALL BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES, AND THEIR SPEARS INTO PRUNINGHOOKS: NATION SHALL NOT LIFT UP SWORD AGAINST NATION, NEITHER SHALL THEY LEARN WAR ANY MORE.” Isaiah is obviously talking about nations of the Earth that are not destroyed either during the Great Tribulation or after the Second Coming of Christ. Isaiah 14:1-2, “For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. AND THE PEOPLE SHALL TAKE THEM, AND BRING THEM TO THEIR PLACE: AND THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL SHALL POSSESS THEM IN THE LAND OF THE LORD FOR SERVANTS AND HANDMAIDS: AND THEY SHALL TAKE THEM CAPTIVE, WHOSE CAPTIVES THEY WERE; AND THEY SHALL RULE OVER THEIR OPPRESSORS” Again, these verses wouldn’t make any sense unless it referred specifically to surviving Gentile nations. Zechariah 14:9,16-19, “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one … AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT EVERY ONE THAT IS LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS WHICH CAME UP AGAINST JERUSALEM shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of ALL NATIONS that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.” If it’s only “Tribulation Saints” who survive the tribulation, then who on earth are the “heathen” that the Lord will “smite” if they don’t keep His feasts?? Ezekiel 36:24-28,36, “For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God…. THEN THE HEATHEN THAT ARE LEFT ROUND ABOUT YOU shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.” Why are there so many Gentile survivors after the wrath of God on the Day of the Lord? God could destroy literally every last non-believer on the planet if He wanted to. But I think the last portion of this verse is why many will live … Habakkuk 3:2, “O LORD, I have heard Your speech [and] was afraid; O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years! In the midst of the years make [it] known; In wrath remember mercy.” After the post-trib rapture, there are many who will be alive after the Second Coming to repopulate the Earth, and these are they who did not worship Antichrist and receive the Mark of the Beast but are permitted to enter the Millennial Kingdom after the Sheep and Goat judgment. Scripture leaves no doubt about it. |
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t
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Post by t on Apr 23, 2024 13:50:06 GMT
thank you for your help in clarifying the MK.
so, believers are raptured 10 days before the Wrath and are caught up with those who have passed on before and are reunited.
then, are the believers to be brought into the MK with the nonbelievers who survived the Wrath, where we will all live for 1,000 years - some in incorruptible/resurrected bodies and others who remain in a corruptible state?
will those who are in corruptible state be made incorruptible during this Reign by "washing their robe in the Lamb's blood", as the tribulation saints?
as MK pre-wrath believers, are the Scriptures saying that we will be given a role/job during this Reign to aid in bringing more to salvation, ie, to learn all about the original plan of God's as was to be in the Garden as well as the Hebrew Feasts, etc?
and, finally, after the MK Reign, when God unleashes satan for one last time, is this when we will move to our Heavenly home for eternity?
i appreciate your feedback and guidance!
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glen
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Post by glen on Apr 25, 2024 21:07:53 GMT
thank you for your help in clarifying the MK. so, believers are raptured 10 days before the Wrath and are caught up with those who have passed on before and are reunited. then, are the believers to be brought into the MK with the nonbelievers who survived the Wrath, where we will all live for 1,000 years - some in incorruptible/resurrected bodies and others who remain in a corruptible state? will those who are in corruptible state be made incorruptible during this Reign by "washing their robe in the Lamb's blood", as the tribulation saints? as MK pre-wrath believers, are the Scriptures saying that we will be given a role/job during this Reign to aid in bringing more to salvation, ie, to learn all about the original plan of God's as was to be in the Garden as well as the Hebrew Feasts, etc? and, finally, after the MK Reign, when God unleashes satan for one last time, is this when we will move to our Heavenly home for eternity? i appreciate your feedback and guidance! Hey T, Messiah 2030 and midnightwatcher have done a great job already in explaining things, but I thought I'd add in a little more for your current questions. Yes to your first question. Those with glorified bodies will be given positions of authority based on things they have done for God while in their earthly body, and will rule and reign with Jesus during the MK. Those with corruptible bodies will re populate the earth during the 1000 years. Great question on your second one. I really don't know how that plays out. I still have not come to a conclusion on what happens after the 1000 year reign because I'm not convinced as to when the new heaven and new earth are made. If you read Rev 20 and then on to 21, it seems like the new heaven/earth are after the 1000 years, but as midnightwatcher has stated, and I agree with, Revelation is not chronological, but topical. John speaks about a topic (seals, trumpets, bowls) and then after he finishes, then he will go back and talk about something/s that were important during that topic. Then he will move on to the next topic. So is John repeating this theme in Rev 20 and 21? Things that lead me to believe that are this: 1. Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. This sounds like something that is still future. Re 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. Re 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. Re 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. This speaks of nations, differing ethnicities/nationalities. This is not true of people with glorified bodies, as once that happens we become one with the Lord. Also, if everyone had a glorified body at this point, why would verse 27 be needed. Also, v 24 seems to be making a distinction, insinuating that there are unsaved nations. e 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Once we receive our glorified bodies, we will never get sick, feel pain or grow old; we will be immortal/eternal: like Christ. If that is the case for everyone at this point, why the need for healing? And finally, in Isa we see this: Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. If you read the rest of the chapter, it clearly is talking about the MK.And And 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:8 ¶ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. I had always believed that the new heaven/earth followed the MK, but now I'm not sure. Maybe others could chime in on this topic for some clarification? I've already somewhat answered your next question but exactly what the goal is during that time, I do not know, but apparently we fail miserably because as soon as Satan is released, it only takes him a season to turn a massive amount of people against Jesus and us!!! /boggle And your final question I've already mentioned that I'm unsure. If the new heaven/earth is made at the beginning of the MK, then we really have no clue what is in store for post MK. But, if the new heaven/earth is post MK, then it appears that we don't go to heaven, but heaven comes to us, or rather God and the new city Jerusalem. Hope this helps, somewhat  |
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t
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Post by t on Apr 25, 2024 22:33:25 GMT
glen, thank you so much for your reply and thoughts. i will have to read and re-read to digest it all. t |
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zach
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Post by zach on Apr 27, 2024 0:09:39 GMT
I've already somewhat answered your next question but exactly what the goal is during that time, I do not know, but apparently we fail miserably because as soon as Satan is released, it only takes him a season to turn a massive amount of people against Jesus and us!!! /boggle And your final question I've already mentioned that I'm unsure. If the new heaven/earth is made at the beginning of the MK, then we really have no clue what is in store for post MK. But, if the new heaven/earth is post MK, then it appears that we don't go to heaven, but heaven comes to us, or rather God and the new city Jerusalem. I have been taught that the purpose of the MK is to fulfill several promises made in the OT to God's chosen people, the Israelites. An example is the kind of prophecies/promises that the Jews were expecting their Messiah/Jesus to fulfill the first time. Jesus will be king, ruler, and judge over all the nations (sitting on the white throne judgement seat). I also think it is to wrap up God's plan for all human history. Think of God like the author of the perfect book. It should have a satisfying conclusion. If it was just final judgement, heaven and hell, destroying the earth, then all (in heaven) lived happily ever after, it wouldn't be as well written as it could be. The ending points back to the beginning. The MK is like a restoration to the Garden of Eden - the tree of life is back, God/Jesus dwells with us, no sin like before the fall (for the resurrected), and the lions grazing with sheep, etc. The MK is like the 7th day of creation when God rested from all the work of the previous 6 days. It will be a day (1000 years) of rest from all the toil of human history. It also points back to the major themes of the entire story. Satan is released to deceive many as the ultimate show of mankind's depravity. To show that God is not unjust, he is the perfect judge of our hearts, that everyone is without excuse, even those throughout history who did not see miracles first hand, or heard the gospel, or the proof of God and his character like that those living through the MK are shown. They are given a choice at the end to choose God or Satan. There is no neutral position. You're either for God or against Him, you're either slave to God or slave to sin. It also shows that it is not the world or Satan that keeps fallen mankind from being righteous, our human nature alone keeps us from living up to the perfect standard required to be in the presence of God (which is what eternity in heaven is) and that only God Himself in the person of Jesus can fulfill the law. It re-emphasizes the solution to the problem (the fall of man, sin, the disconnect to God). Messiah 2030 said this on another thread. "The Yom Kippur sacrifice will never be accepted again (Daniel 9:27/Hebrews 10). All other sacrifices will be accepted in the 1,000 year reign, but only after the Levites have repented and participate in the first resurrection." It's because Jesus fulfilled that sacrifice once and for all which is the main point of Hebrews. So, I believe we will practice all the feasts and teach the nations to do so as well in remembrance of what God has done. There is so much more that I'm sure could be found on this, it would be a fun deep-dive study. |
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Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Apr 27, 2024 18:22:11 GMT
Good post. The MK is also to have Israel finally do what they were chosen to do from the beginning, which is to be light (Torah) to the nations, which connects to the ruling and reigning with Messiah over the nations.
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glen
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Post by glen on Apr 30, 2024 1:53:28 GMT
Thanks for the response, that makes sense. It sounds like you believe that the new heaven and earth are created before the the MK or right at the start of it rather than at the end of it. Is that correct?
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Post by childofgod on Jul 14, 2024 10:00:05 GMT
Hello. I'm brand new to this forum.
I'm very confused. When Jesus says in John 5.28- 29 that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Who are exactly in these groups?
Also do any of these groups get a resurrection during the 1K reign? Who are the people that are judged at the end of the 1K reign who stand before the great white throne judgment?
Thank you
Karen 🌷
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