|
Post by midnightwatcher on Jun 25, 2024 13:30:03 GMT
MidnightWatcher I’ve seen you reference Rev 10 a few times stating it shows the rapture. Now I may be missing something but my revelation 10 is about an angel with a little scroll that John eats. I’m not seeing the rapture connection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The verses above are two of the — if not the — most popular “rapture” passages in the entire Bible. Yet when many Christians read about the timing of the “rapture” at the “last trump” they are either unaware, or because of an already preconceived assumption on this very subject, refuse to even consider if the “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a direct reference to the 7th and last trumpet that John describes in the 10th chapter of Revelation. But why? Admittedly, even I was not aware of the significance of Revelation 10 for many years, but am now more than convinced that we can corroborate through the context of text that this is indeed the last trumpet that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the church in Corinth. Let's approach these texts as if it were for the first time, with the heart of a Berean so that together we may search the Scriptures. In this way, let's now begin to pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the mighty angel as he begins to sound the 7th and last trumpet in Revelation 10: Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me: Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular "rapture" passages in the entire Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” In Revelation 10 we have: 1. A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven 2. Crying out with a loud voice 3. The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound 4. And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have: 1. The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel 2. With a shout 3. Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God 4. The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye I do not believe that this is just some mere, yet astounding, coincidence. In fact, if we examine the text even more closely we’ll begin to discover something very significant regarding the identity of the “mighty angel” of Revelation 10 that many of us will easily miss the first time we read the text. In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “ clothed with a cloud.” Why is this important? In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming. He is said to be “ coming on the clouds” or “ coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9). Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “ his face was like the sun,” which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “ like the sun shining in all its brilliance.” Who could this be? In Revelation 10:2 we find another significant clue, and this is one that I myself missed the first time I looked at Revelation 10 more closely. In verse 2 John tells us that this mighty angel “ was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand.” This is extremely interesting for two reasons. First, the only other mention of a scroll being opened in Revelation before this is in chapter 5 where a scroll with 7 seals could not be opened by anyone — presumably anyone created given the context — because “ no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it” (5:3). Considering the Semitic styling of Revelation, John was Jewish and would have understood what this meant and it upset him a great deal, causing him to weep. But then one of the elders says to John, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (5:5). There is no question here regarding the identity of the One who is worthy to open the book, the One described in the very next verse appearing as “a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain” (5:6). Obviously, this is Messiah, Jesus. Second, we gain an extremely important insight into this picture when we consider what it means from a Hebraic perspective and why it would have caused John to weep: "Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah? Yes, the Groom." (https://www.scribd.com/document/20189667/Revelation-Revealed-Cont-d). If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant? Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here. Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself. See here. Next, in Revelation 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is yet again another significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘ The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “ The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” Now, although this next clue is found in 10:1 I wanted to save it for last. It is the “ rainbow upon his head.” The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Significantly, aside from the very last book of the Bible, the only other time a rainbow appears in Scripture is in the first book of the Bible in Genesis 9:13-14. In the Genesis account, the rainbow is seen in the aftermath of the global flood sent forth by God in order to remove sinful and evil-minded man from the earth. As the rainbow symbolizes God’s promise to never again destroy the earth through a flood, we are reminded by Peter that the next time judgment comes it will not come by a flood, but by fire. In 2 Peter 3:3-7, we read: “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” “Where is this coming he promised?” There is their answer. Judging from what we have learned from above we can ascertain both exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is in fact a direct reference to Jesus Christ. But make no mistake about it, this is not just some regular, ordinary, created "angel". It is very important to first be aware that the word “angel” simply means “messenger” and although this term normally refers to a created being, this is NOT always the case. The Angel of the LORD, for example, (i.e. the Messenger of YHWH in the Old Testament) often speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and claims the prerogatives of God because He is God. When the Lord appeared to others in “human” form in the Old Testament this was called a Theophany (though I personally prefer the term Christophany, even if prior to the incarnation). Thus, just as we see the Christophanic / Theophanic angel in Old Testament Scriptures, and the terminology used throughout Revelation by John is redolent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the “mighty messenger” of Revelation 10 is an appearance of the Christophanic / Theophanic angel as well. When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around. Only better. As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth. And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven. It reveals the gathering of His elect. It reveals the rapture of the Church.
|
|
|
Post by The Messiah 2030 Project on Jun 25, 2024 13:58:54 GMT
We would agree that Revelation 10 is additional detail for the 7th trumpet, which is what we believe to be the first resurrection (rapture), the restoration of the kingdom, and the beginning of the wrath (bowls). (see part 2)
|
|
|
Post by lucasr on Jun 25, 2024 16:07:59 GMT
caps for emphasis. Greetings Lee, here is a what I have shared for *50 years and hope that as the Apostle Paul wrote
“I am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that…” - I looked up the definition of ‘persuade’ - “To be CONVINCED AGAINST YOUR OWN WILL.” I pray that along with others who also believed we “could be raptured any moment” that Jesus- “The Word” -Rev 19:13/John 1:1 will show AND CONVINCE YOU of His will and plan. (* I have edited out the “confirming of the covenant, having been wonderfully enlightened by Messiah 2030’s correct ‘dividing’ of God’s Word.) I also pray that this “milkier” explanation will continue to be used by God to “feed His lambs and sheep.” …………………….. THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, HERE IS WHY.
1. A THIEF IN THE NIGHT.
Read 1 Thess. 5:1-5. Verse 2 is used to show that Jesus will come like a thief, an unexpected hour and will sort of steal us away. If you look at verse 4 it says that “we” - the saints, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake us as a *thief. Jesus will come only as a thief to those who are in darkness.
(In a ‘parable’ Jesus said *they broke in through the walls. I find this fascinating when we think about the invasion of TV, Internet, phones etc - ‘through the walls that physically protect us’ - all steal our time, falsehoods permeate the Truth if we are not clothed with the armour of God.)
Psalm 119:130. “The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding to the simple.”
2. NO MAN KNOWETH? Read Matt 24:36. This is used to show that it is not possible to know exactly when Jesus is coming back because - “No man knoweth the day nor the hour...but the Father only.”
(Edit 25/6/24 Having watched Messiah 2030 I prayerfully contemplated “the Father only.” Until our Father unsealed it (1948/1950?) even the Holy Spirit within would not prompt prayers asking to know, indeed the answer would be “If God hasn’t even told His beloved Son, He is not going to tell you.” But now that God has unsealed the prophecies in Daniel the verse “All things that I have heard from my Father I have made known unto you.” “You” being His disciples/followers, comes fully I believe, “into play.” Revelation 19:10 NKJV “For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” End of edit)
If you look at 1 Cor 2:9-10, &11, verse 9 says about the same as Matt 24:36 - “But as it is written... V10 “But God hath revealed...God.” That no man has heard, seen or even imagined what God has prepared for us, no man knoweth. Then v10 says that though man himself (or of himself) doesn’t know, God has revealed them unto us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches the deep things of God. Then v11 uses exactly the same words as Matt 24:36 when it says “the things of God, knoweth no man.” So the things of God, (including the times of Jesus’s return) knoweth no man, but (as it says in 1 Cor 2:9,10) God has revealed them unto us by His Spirit.* (Dan 2:22 “He revealeth the deep...him.”)
3. WHAT DID JESUS TEACH? Read Matt 24:3-31. From verse 3 - 13, Jesus gives us a general picture of the world from the time of His death, to the time of this present generation. At verse 14 He tells of the coming evangelism which would take place just before the end, which is being accomplished today. Verse 15 is the first mention of a specific event that would take place, signalling the beginning of a certain end-time period. Underline the word “when” in verse 15. So the abomination of desolation is mentioned in Daniel - throughout that Book - which Jesus said if you would read you would understand what he is talking about. Here are some of the references:- Dan 8;13,14. Dan 9:27. Dan 11:31. Dan 12:10. The setting up of this abomination according to Daniel takes place, ( here I have corrected, in line with the Messiah2030 teachings, the incorrect ‘perspective’ which has been commonly taught over the last 50 years during which time I have shared this. I am confident that the Holy Spirit will lead those who have it into ALL truth.) beginning “a time, times and half a times,” often called The Great Tribulation.
So Jesus said in Matt 24:15, “when you see the abomination” that those in Judea should flee, and other warnings from verses 16-20, because as it says in verse 21 “then shall be great tribulation.”
WHEN SHALL BE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?
When you see the abomination of desolation. So the great tribulation lasts 3 & 1/2 years before Jesus comes back. Verse 22 shows that things are going to be so bad that if those days aren’t shortened, no flesh would be saved, but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. It doesn’t say we are not going through those days at all, but that those days shall be shortened for our sakes. The saints will be gathered together before Jesus comes to the earth for the battle of Armageddon and the 7 vials of Revelation 16 are poured out on the wicked.
Jesus gave us a description of the state of the world during the great tribulation with warnings about...
“FALSE CHRISTS.” Here to refresh you are Verses 23 - 26 of Matt 24.
:23 “ Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. :24 “For there shall arise false Christ’s, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonder; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. :25 “Behold, I have told you before. :26 “Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.”
VERSE 27 IS A PICTURE OF THE COMING OF CHRIST.
“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
From the description here it does NOT seem like A SECRET ‘RAPTURE’ but AN ALMOST CATACLYSMIC EVENT !
VERSE 29 IS THE KEY… “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Underline the word “after” - Immediately “after” the tribulation.)
From this we now can see that verses 30 & 31 take place after the tribulation.
Verse 30.Underline the word “then” to show this.
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Underline “the clouds of heaven” and “see.” and look up these cross-references, to show that we are seeing the same event mentioned in other parts of the Bible.
Acts 1 : 9 - 11. “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.” :10 “And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel.” :11 “Which also said, “Ye men of Galilee, why stand he gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.“
Revelation 1:7 “Behold he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so amen.”
Then verse 31, which is a continuation of the action of verse 30. (Which takes place after the tribulation.) This shows Jesus gathering his saints after the tribulation. If he was going to gather some before, why didn’t he mention it?
Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets unto his servants the prophets.”
Underline these key words, “great sound of the trumpet” in verse 31, and also “gather together” as we will be referring back to these.
Some people say that because it says in verse 31 that he gathers his saints from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, this shows the saints aren’t on earth but in heaven, because - we’ve already been raptured.
But that is the beauty of having four gospels, so we can always check it out in another to see if it agrees.
Read Mark 13:27 “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the utmost part of heaven.” Which shows the same event as Matthew 24 : 31 but says the saints are gathered from earth and heaven. The living and the dead changed, (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 :16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first :17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.“
The dead raised first, and those alive and remaining on earth caught up together in the clouds. You.
|
|
|
Post by beckywc on Jun 25, 2024 19:33:33 GMT
MidnightWatcher I’ve seen you reference Rev 10 a few times stating it shows the rapture. Now I may be missing something but my revelation 10 is about an angel with a little scroll that John eats. I’m not seeing the rapture connection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The verses above are two of the — if not the — most popular “rapture” passages in the entire Bible. Yet when many Christians read about the timing of the “rapture” at the “last trump” they are either unaware, or because of an already preconceived assumption on this very subject, refuse to even consider if the “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a direct reference to the 7th and last trumpet that John describes in the 10th chapter of Revelation. But why? Admittedly, even I was not aware of the significance of Revelation 10 for many years, but am now more than convinced that we can corroborate through the context of text that this is indeed the last trumpet that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the church in Corinth. Let's approach these texts as if it were for the first time, with the heart of a Berean so that together we may search the Scriptures. In this way, let's now begin to pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the mighty angel as he begins to sound the 7th and last trumpet in Revelation 10: Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me: Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular "rapture" passages in the entire Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” In Revelation 10 we have: 1. A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven 2. Crying out with a loud voice 3. The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound 4. And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have: 1. The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel 2. With a shout 3. Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God 4. The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye I do not believe that this is just some mere, yet astounding, coincidence. In fact, if we examine the text even more closely we’ll begin to discover something very significant regarding the identity of the “mighty angel” of Revelation 10 that many of us will easily miss the first time we read the text. In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “ clothed with a cloud.” Why is this important? In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming. He is said to be “ coming on the clouds” or “ coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9). Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “ his face was like the sun,” which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “ like the sun shining in all its brilliance.” Who could this be? In Revelation 10:2 we find another significant clue, and this is one that I myself missed the first time I looked at Revelation 10 more closely. In verse 2 John tells us that this mighty angel “ was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand.” This is extremely interesting for two reasons. First, the only other mention of a scroll being opened in Revelation before this is in chapter 5 where a scroll with 7 seals could not be opened by anyone — presumably anyone created given the context — because “ no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it” (5:3). Considering the Semitic styling of Revelation, John was Jewish and would have understood what this meant and it upset him a great deal, causing him to weep. But then one of the elders says to John, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (5:5). There is no question here regarding the identity of the One who is worthy to open the book, the One described in the very next verse appearing as “a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain” (5:6). Obviously, this is Messiah, Jesus. Second, we gain an extremely important insight into this picture when we consider what it means from a Hebraic perspective and why it would have caused John to weep: "Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah? Yes, the Groom." (https://www.scribd.com/document/20189667/Revelation-Revealed-Cont-d). If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant? Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here. Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself. See here. Next, in Revelation 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is yet again another significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘ The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “ The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” Now, although this next clue is found in 10:1 I wanted to save it for last. It is the “ rainbow upon his head.” The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Significantly, aside from the very last book of the Bible, the only other time a rainbow appears in Scripture is in the first book of the Bible in Genesis 9:13-14. In the Genesis account, the rainbow is seen in the aftermath of the global flood sent forth by God in order to remove sinful and evil-minded man from the earth. As the rainbow symbolizes God’s promise to never again destroy the earth through a flood, we are reminded by Peter that the next time judgment comes it will not come by a flood, but by fire. In 2 Peter 3:3-7, we read: “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” “Where is this coming he promised?” There is their answer. Judging from what we have learned from above we can ascertain both exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is in fact a direct reference to Jesus Christ. But make no mistake about it, this is not just some regular, ordinary, created "angel". It is very important to first be aware that the word “angel” simply means “messenger” and although this term normally refers to a created being, this is NOT always the case. The Angel of the LORD, for example, (i.e. the Messenger of YHWH in the Old Testament) often speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and claims the prerogatives of God because He is God. When the Lord appeared to others in “human” form in the Old Testament this was called a Theophany (though I personally prefer the term Christophany, even if prior to the incarnation). Thus, just as we see the Christophanic / Theophanic angel in Old Testament Scriptures, and the terminology used throughout Revelation by John is redolent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the “mighty messenger” of Revelation 10 is an appearance of the Christophanic / Theophanic angel as well. When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around. Only better. As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth. And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven. It reveals the gathering of His elect. It reveals the rapture of the Church.In the first Exodus, Jesus was also in the cloud by day and the fire by night that protected the children of Israel from the Egyptians and led them through the desert.
|
|
|
Post by Austin M on Jun 28, 2024 3:37:50 GMT
MidnightWatcher I’ve seen you reference Rev 10 a few times stating it shows the rapture. Now I may be missing something but my revelation 10 is about an angel with a little scroll that John eats. I’m not seeing the rapture connection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The verses above are two of the — if not the — most popular “rapture” passages in the entire Bible. Yet when many Christians read about the timing of the “rapture” at the “last trump” they are either unaware, or because of an already preconceived assumption on this very subject, refuse to even consider if the “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a direct reference to the 7th and last trumpet that John describes in the 10th chapter of Revelation. But why? Admittedly, even I was not aware of the significance of Revelation 10 for many years, but am now more than convinced that we can corroborate through the context of text that this is indeed the last trumpet that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the church in Corinth. Let's approach these texts as if it were for the first time, with the heart of a Berean so that together we may search the Scriptures. In this way, let's now begin to pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the mighty angel as he begins to sound the 7th and last trumpet in Revelation 10: Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me: Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular "rapture" passages in the entire Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” In Revelation 10 we have: 1. A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven 2. Crying out with a loud voice 3. The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound 4. And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have: 1. The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel 2. With a shout 3. Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God 4. The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye I do not believe that this is just some mere, yet astounding, coincidence. In fact, if we examine the text even more closely we’ll begin to discover something very significant regarding the identity of the “mighty angel” of Revelation 10 that many of us will easily miss the first time we read the text. In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “ clothed with a cloud.” Why is this important? In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming. He is said to be “ coming on the clouds” or “ coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9). Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “ his face was like the sun,” which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “ like the sun shining in all its brilliance.” Who could this be? In Revelation 10:2 we find another significant clue, and this is one that I myself missed the first time I looked at Revelation 10 more closely. In verse 2 John tells us that this mighty angel “ was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand.” This is extremely interesting for two reasons. First, the only other mention of a scroll being opened in Revelation before this is in chapter 5 where a scroll with 7 seals could not be opened by anyone — presumably anyone created given the context — because “ no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it” (5:3). Considering the Semitic styling of Revelation, John was Jewish and would have understood what this meant and it upset him a great deal, causing him to weep. But then one of the elders says to John, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (5:5). There is no question here regarding the identity of the One who is worthy to open the book, the One described in the very next verse appearing as “a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain” (5:6). Obviously, this is Messiah, Jesus. Second, we gain an extremely important insight into this picture when we consider what it means from a Hebraic perspective and why it would have caused John to weep: "Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah? Yes, the Groom." (https://www.scribd.com/document/20189667/Revelation-Revealed-Cont-d). If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant? Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here. Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself. See here. Next, in Revelation 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is yet again another significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘ The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “ The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” Now, although this next clue is found in 10:1 I wanted to save it for last. It is the “ rainbow upon his head.” The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Significantly, aside from the very last book of the Bible, the only other time a rainbow appears in Scripture is in the first book of the Bible in Genesis 9:13-14. In the Genesis account, the rainbow is seen in the aftermath of the global flood sent forth by God in order to remove sinful and evil-minded man from the earth. As the rainbow symbolizes God’s promise to never again destroy the earth through a flood, we are reminded by Peter that the next time judgment comes it will not come by a flood, but by fire. In 2 Peter 3:3-7, we read: “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” “Where is this coming he promised?” There is their answer. Judging from what we have learned from above we can ascertain both exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is in fact a direct reference to Jesus Christ. But make no mistake about it, this is not just some regular, ordinary, created "angel". It is very important to first be aware that the word “angel” simply means “messenger” and although this term normally refers to a created being, this is NOT always the case. The Angel of the LORD, for example, (i.e. the Messenger of YHWH in the Old Testament) often speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and claims the prerogatives of God because He is God. When the Lord appeared to others in “human” form in the Old Testament this was called a Theophany (though I personally prefer the term Christophany, even if prior to the incarnation). Thus, just as we see the Christophanic / Theophanic angel in Old Testament Scriptures, and the terminology used throughout Revelation by John is redolent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the “mighty messenger” of Revelation 10 is an appearance of the Christophanic / Theophanic angel as well. When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example. It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around. Only better. As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth. And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven. It reveals the gathering of His elect. It reveals the rapture of the Church.Very well articulated, thank you for clearing this up.
|
|
|
Post by Itzverysimple on Aug 28, 2024 19:35:53 GMT
What is the point of a "Rapture" that 1) occurs at the end of whatever; 2) does not have some special significance such as save the elect from the tribulation. ANYTHING can be "proved" from the Scriptures regarding the Rapture. But someone explain to me the rationale for such an extraordinary mechanism if not to save someone from something such as Enoch and Elijah ... The LORD was OBVIOUSLY making a point by saving them both from impending peril! So again tell me what the peril is at the END of the tribulation!
|
|
|
Post by Itzverysimple on Aug 28, 2024 21:22:20 GMT
AND .... Why were the Elect (i.e. the Body of Christ, as Paul called them) so concerned about having "missed" the Rapture and worried that they were in the Tribulation? And why did Paul feel the need to say to them "... I would not have you ignorant brethren ...". Doesn't sound to me like the Rapture was an event at the end of the Tribulation with no consequences for the welfare of believers.
|
|
|
Post by Shelli on Aug 31, 2024 3:15:45 GMT
For midnightwatcher you wrote……After the post-trib rapture, there are many who will be alive after the Second Coming to repopulate the Earth, and these are they who did NOT worship Antichrist and receive the Mark of the Beast but are permitted to enter the Millennial Kingdom after the Sheep and Goat judgment. Scripture leaves no doubt about it. So you are saying that unbelievers do not take the mark of worship the Antichrist? They don’t believe in Jesus and they do t believe the Antichrist either? There are on,y two camps Jesus or Antichrist. No middle ground I thought.
|
|
|
Post by midnightwatcher on Sept 3, 2024 20:14:14 GMT
For midnightwatcher you wrote……After the post-trib rapture, there are many who will be alive after the Second Coming to repopulate the Earth, and these are they who did NOT worship Antichrist and receive the Mark of the Beast but are permitted to enter the Millennial Kingdom after the Sheep and Goat judgment. Scripture leaves no doubt about it. So you are saying that unbelievers do not take the mark of worship the Antichrist? They don’t believe in Jesus and they do t believe the Antichrist either? There are on,y two camps Jesus or Antichrist. No middle ground I thought. Hi Shelli, the view that there are only two camps during the time of Antichrist in great tribulation -- ie, those who have the Mark of the Beast and those who have the Mark of Christ -- stems from the idea that Antichrist will rule the world. This understanding, however, is not taught by Scripture. I'll share below the bulk of what I wrote here. Many Christians today believe that when Antichrist is revealed the world will suddenly experience some form of global governance virtually overnight, controlled by a man who will be worshiped as God himself. Although there are a few verses in Scripture that may appear to give credence to the idea that the entire earth will be overcome by the last-days Antichrist at first glance, the whole of Scripture supports neither the idea of a “One World Government” (OWG) ruled by Antichrist, nor the idea of an end-of-days leader who controls literally every last nation on the earth. Many popular teachers of Biblical eschatology who support the idea of a OWG and Antichrist who controls the political and religious dictates of all the nations of the world will agree, at the very least, that the last portion of Daniel 11 from verses 36 and beyond all refer to the final years leading up to the Second Coming of Christ. What they fail to consider, however, are the following questions that should be obvious to anyone who holds to both of these positions: - If Antichrist’s rule is literally global, why are other resistor nations waging war against Antichrist and why is Antichrist also waging wars? (Daniel 11:39-45).
- How can “all” mean literally “all” if even one nation — for example Jordan — is able to “escape his hand” (Dan 11:41)?
- If Antichrist rules the entire world, why be so worried about news coming out of the east and the north (Dan 11:44)?
Many will point to certain verses and take from those specific verses the idea that Antichrist rules the entire literal earth. For example: Rev 13:8, “ All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast – all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.” Zechariah 14:2, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity…” But are the verses above referring to literally every single person upon the earth, and to literally all nations in the world? To answer this question we must first take a closer look at Scripture to determine whether “all” must always be understood in a literal, universal sense. To begin, let us carefully consider the following: Luke 2:1-3, “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And ALL went to be taxed, every one into his own city.” Mark 1:5, “And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.” Daniel 2:36-38, “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them ALL. You are that head of gold.” Ezra 1:2, “Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD Elohim of heaven hath given me ALL the kingdoms of the earth;” Romans 10:18, “But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into ALL the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.” Using a bit of common sense we already know the answers to the following questions, but in light of the verses above let’s ask the obvious: Did Caesar literally tax the whole world? Did every last man, woman and child in Judea and Jerusalem get baptized in the Jordan River? Did Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus literally rule over the entire earth, ruling over the native Indians in North and South America? Was the Gospel preached to the whole literal earth during the lives of the disciples? We know that the answer to each of these questions is “No” because these verses are obvious examples of a figure of speech known as a synecdoche. It is like saying “the whole world watched the Super Bowl on Sunday.” We read something similar in Colossians 1:23, which says, “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.” We know that Paul did not preach to crickets, frogs and polar bears, which sounds silly to say, but would be the logical conclusion we’d have to draw if one threw out common sense and read such a verse in a strictly wooden, literal sense. Such statements are never intended to be understood literally and are synecdochical expressions that use a part for the whole, or the whole for a part. This figure of speech is often found in Scripture, especially when we read about kings and their kingdoms, and the end-of-days “man of lawlessness” that many identify as Antichrist will be no different.
Many of us will often recognize this figure of speech in Scripture but then insist that any references to Antichrist could never be synecdochical, despite the fact that numerous other verses in Scripture in the context of this eschatonic Antichrist demonstrate it forcefully. For instance, Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if wars are being waged against other nations. Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if even one nation is able to “escape his hand.” Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole planet when other resistor nations are themselves waging war against Antichrist right up until the end (Dan 11:39-45). Regardless, such logic or way of thinking just doesn’t fit with what many have always been taught by many Christian teachers and prophecy experts. Bringing It Down To “Earth”Many will insist that Scripture does not allow a synecdochical understanding when it comes to Antichrist, instinctively pointing to verses that speak of the whole “earth” such as Revelation 13:3-4, 13:8, 13:12, 13:17 and 17:8 as “proof.” In each and every single one of these verses, however, the word for “earth” is the Greek word “ge”, which will often be referring to “a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region”. But if this is the intended meaning, how can we know? One clue is found for us in the second part of Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 when John writes that those who worship the Beast are those “whose names are not written in the book of life.” Here, John directs us to an understanding that it will not be literally all that dwell upon the earth that will worship the Beast. It is, rather, a certain group only. Moreover, if the Spirit’s intent were to convey the whole literal planet, John would have likely been inspired to use a much better word such as “kosmos” (cf Acts 17:24) to convey such a meaning. This should also be quite obvious to us when considering the undeniable fact that a great multitude “which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” will come out of Great Tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14). If they come out of Great Tribulation, they had to be in it, and while they were in it they did not worship Antichrist. Significantly, even the Old Testament prophets themselves allude to a geographical limitation of this eschatonic Antichrist with some very specific details of their own. In describing the armies that come up against Israel at Armageddon, the prophets Zechariah, Joel and Ezekiel all show us that the hegemony of Antichrist’s reign is limited geographically by telling us that the surrounding nations or neighbors are those who will be gathered against Jerusalem, not every nation of the earth universal. But what about Zechariah 14:2, you ask? Doesn’t this show us all the nations in the world coming up against Jerusalem? Zechariah 14:2, “For I will gather ALL nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity…” Who are all the nations referring to here? The Hebrew text says “goy cabiyb” and this can very easily also mean the surrounding Gentiles or the Gentiles round about. This is yet another example of a synecdoche, as we’ve learned above, not to mention the fact that Zechariah had just described all of these nations two chapters earlier as the surrounding nations. Contextually, “all nations” in Zechariah 14:2 is simply referring to all of the “surrounding” nations spoken of in chapter 12: Zechariah 12:2, “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the SURROUNDING PEOPLES reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.” And Zechariah refers to the surrounding nations yet again just a few short verses after 14:2, writing: Zechariah 14:14, “Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the SURROUNDING NATIONS will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.” The Prophet Joel himself also prophesied: Joel 3:11-12, “Hasten and come, all you SURROUNDING NATIONS, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the SURROUNDING NATIONS.” As did the Prophet Ezekiel: Ezekiel 28:24-26, “‘No longer will the people of Israel have malicious NEIGHBORS who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. ” ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their NEIGHBORS WHO MALIGNED AGAINST THEM. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.'” Zechariah would not have been referring to literally all nations on the planet in Zechariah 14:2, only to then turn around and say just the surrounding nations in verse 14:14, not to mention 12:2. Logistically, it wouldn’t even be possible for literally every nation on earth to amass troops, tanks, aircraft, personnel carriers, etc. etc. etc. in one Israeli valley. In the context of Zechariah 14:2 it is quite apparent that Zechariah is referring only to the surrounding nations, as he had already wrote about previously in 12:2 and then again later in 14:14. The prophets Joel and Ezekiel confirm this as well. That is not to say, however, that the Bible always talks about the world in a regional or limited sense. There are many examples that we can point to that obviously refer to the whole literal earth, and the Greek word “ kosmos” in John 3:16 would be one of those examples that refers to the earth as a whole and not just simply the region. Comparing Scripture with Scripture hermeneutically and examining the text exegetically leads us to an understanding that the Gospel is to be preached over the whole literal world (Matthew 24:14, “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [ oikoumenē – the inhabited earth] for a witness unto all nations [ pas ethnos – every ethnic group/tribe”; Matthew 26:13, “Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world [ kosmos – the world, all of humanity]; John 3:16, “For God so loved the world [ kosmos – the world, all of humanity] … that whosoever [ pas – everyone] believeth in him …). There is no geographical limitation in the original text when it comes to preaching the Gospel, but there is a geographical limitation in the text when it describes the scope of Antichrist’s dominion. The Common Denominator of All Surrounding NationsAlthough I believe that the “seat of the Beast” (cf Revelation 13:2, 16:10) will be primarily regional, Antichrist’s influence will definitely be felt globally and involves one common denominator that we see today in all nations that surround Israel: the religion of Islam. We are even seeing its influence both inside and outside of politics. Consider, for instance, that recently an American-born Al Qaeda leader publicly called upon Muslims in America to start buying guns and begin killing non-Muslim Americans. I’ve believed for some time now that when this does come it will, with the right “triggering event”, not be isolated. It will be wide-scale. As we all know, there are millions upon millions of Muslims living in Western nations today. If an event were to occur in the world that would be eschatologically pivotal for Muslims this would be sure to awaken any radical elements within the Muslim population, regardless of where they live, and even radicalize some of those who were previously considered “moderate”. The arrival of al Mahdi, for example, could become the “triggering event” that has the potential to precipitate a sudden surge in Islamic terrorism all over the globe. If we are complacent into believing that any such scenario could never happen or is highly unlikely, we don’t need to look far before we come face to face with the sobering reality that Islamic terrorist cells are, today, already forming within our own borders... To contextualize the potential magnitude of what this could entail, consider the number of Muslims living in Western nations today. Although it appears that a significant majority of Muslims want to live in peace we cannot allow ourselves to become comatose to the reality that there are those who do not want to live in peace with “infidels.” There are tens of millions of Muslims living in western countries, with estimates as high as 5-7 million Muslims living in the United States alone. Can we begin to imagine the havoc to be wrought if even 10% of Muslim males were to engage in terrorist activities to secure themselves a place in paradise or to “defend Islam”? This could be hundreds of thousands of radicalized followers of the “prophet Mohammad” who want us dead for the cause of Dar al Islam. In Europe, with a Muslim population of 44 million, it would be in the millions. The Fort Hood killer, a Muslim US Army Major, waged his own jihad and took 13 lives. This was just one man with a gun. The Tsarnaev brothers killed 3 and wounded hundreds in Boston with just two “pressure-cooker” bombs. Imagine what tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions throughout the Western world wielding guns and knives and anything else they could use to maim and kill could do with similar intent. Though the “seat of the Beast” is regional, we have already seen and will continue to see Muslim rioting, civil unrest and acts of terror in non-Muslim nations such as America, Australia, Britain, Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, Sweden and elsewhere, as well as Muslim nations. Its effect will certainly be felt globally, but the extent to which it will be felt at its peak, however, remains to be seen. Although Antichrist will seek to rule the whole literal earth and force the political and religious ideology of the Beast upon every government and upon every man, woman and child on the planet, Antichrist’s efforts will not succeed — an increasingly evident fact to which the whole of the prophetic texts testify. When Christ returns in power and great glory Scripture lists the nations that He fights against by name, and every nation that is identified in Scripture is today an Islamic nation. In light of the whole counsel of Scripture, the Antichrist’s dominion and political-religious control will be relegated primarily to the whole Muslim world — the nations that today surround Israel — but not the world as a whole. So, I've said all that to say this: There are not just two camps during the Great Tribulation. There will be those who actively follow Yahweh, there will be those who actively follow Antichrist, and there will be everyone else. After the Second Coming of Christ, when those who follow Him are gathered to meet Him in the air and escort the King of Kings to earth, the "everyone else" on earth (who survive after the Lord fights against and destroys the armies of the surrounding Islamic nations that come against Jerusalem) will then be separated in the "Sheep and Goat" judgment ( Matthew 24:31-46). Turn on the nightly news today, and it isn't too difficult to see who some of the "sheep" and "goats" may be ...
|
|
|
Post by Oro y Plata on Sept 4, 2024 6:33:39 GMT
Hi midnightwatcher , Can you speak more to the identities of the sheep and goats? By the sounds of it, the sheep appear to be the righteous elect who have been gathered/resurrected; or perhaps they are the ones who fled Judea and lived and became repentant. [Mat 25:33-34 NKJV] 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: The goats appear to be those who worshipped the beast, but were not killed during the treading of the winepress or by the sword of Yeshua's mouth (Rev 19:17-21). Another words, those who worshipped the beast outside of Judea's surrounding enemy nations. [Mat 25:41 NKJV] 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: So can you clarify who participates in the sheep and goat judgment? Is it simply those who fled Judea and lived and become repentant (sheep) and the worshippers of the beast outside the beast kingdom (goats)? Blessings
|
|
|
Post by midnightwatcher on Sept 5, 2024 6:27:16 GMT
Can you speak more to the identities of the sheep and goats? By the sounds of it, the sheep appear to be the righteous elect who have been gathered/resurrected; or perhaps they are the ones who fled Judea and lived and became repentant. [Mat 25:33-34 NKJV] 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: The goats appear to be those who worshipped the beast, but were not killed during the treading of the winepress or by the sword of Yeshua's mouth (Rev 19:17-21). Another words, those who worshipped the beast outside of Judea's surrounding enemy nations. [Mat 25:41 NKJV] 41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: So can you clarify who participates in the sheep and goat judgment? Is it simply those who fled Judea and lived and become repentant (sheep) and the worshippers of the beast outside the beast kingdom (goats)? Blessings Hi Oro y Plata, valid questions, and there's a myriad of views regarding the "Sheep and Goat Judgment" so, as they say, we should always test all things, keep the meat and spit out the bones. I agree that the "sheep" in Matthew 25:32 sounds like the righteous elect who've been raptured/resurrected, but I do not believe this is what is in view here. By the time we get to Matthew 25:31, the "righteous elect" (the Chosen / Ekklesia / Church) both living and dead have already been translated from corruptible to incorruptible at the First Resurrection to meet Christ in the air and escort our returning King to Earth. The only judgment the saints are to see according to Scripture is the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10) to receive rewards. We've already been forgiven and have received eternal life the instant we believe ( Luke 8:11-15; Romans 10:9; Acts 16:31). We don't later go into it (cf. Matthew 25:46). So, the King of Kings has now already come in great power and glory, destroying Antichrist, Antichrist's armies and Antichrist's kingdom. The Millennial Kingdom is about to be ushered in and, since there were other kingdoms of the world besides Antichrist's (cf. Revelation 11:15), billions of people likely survived the Great Tribulation and the "orge" wrath of God. Just imagine how many children there are. What is Christ to do with everyone? It is His will that none should perish ( 2 Peter 3:9) and even in wrath remembers mercy ( Habakkuk 3:2). The Lord is going to issue judgment, not based upon what they believed per se, but upon how they behaved when Antichrist's beast-like predatory kingdom waged a genocidal campaign against the children of God. These survivors will be distinguished into two groups. One group, likened to sheep, will be permitted entry in the Millennial Kingdom. They will be blessed because they will be deemed "righteous" [ dikaios]. According to the context of Matthew 25, they are not righteous in a religious sense but in more of a judicial sense where their treatment of God's people during Great Tribulation is characterized by compassion, kindness, love, by what is just and right. Kind of similar to how non-Jews who risked their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust are honored as " Righteous Among The Nations" (cf. Matthew 1:19 where Joseph was described as a "just" [dakaios] man). These are the type of people that Christ will allow into His earthly kingdom: Matthew 25:35-40, "'For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'"Because they showed mercy to Christ, Christ will show mercy to them. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth... Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy." ( Matthew 5:5,7). By stark contrast, the second group -- likened to goats -- are cursed and expelled into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:42-45, "For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'"Because they did not show mercy to Christ, Christ will show no mercy to them. "For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy ..." ( James 2:13). When I see the masses of violent pro-Hamas "protesters" rampaging on university campuses across America, when I see discriminatory treatment of Jews all around Europe, when I see fellow Christians ridiculed, mocked, persecuted and prosecuted for standing against abortion, against the rabid iniquitous redefinition of "man" and "woman" and "marriage" all across the "enlightened" West, when I see Christians killed and imprisoned by the CCP in China and the KWP in North Korea, by the IRGC in Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan and beyond, I see the goats. And their days are numbered. All of them. Before I end, let me point out there are those who claim that such a view -- that survivors will be permitted entry into the Millennial Kingdom based upon how they treated Yahweh's elect -- promotes a works-based salvation, but I would push back against that claim. Matthew 25:31-46 is not talking about salvation, which guarantees eternal life. For one, the Millennial Kingdom is the earthly reign of Christ. It is not the eternal state. Two, these survivors remain in earthly bodies whereas the saved are glorified and incorruptible ( 1 Cor 15:52; 1 Peter 1:4). Three, though these survivors enter into an earthly Millennial Kingdom, it is a Kingdom that will never end (cf. Daniel 7:27) and thus they are welcomed to enter into eternal life, but they and/or their offspring still have the choice to follow Christ or to rebel (and by the end of the 1000 years, some will indeed rebel per Revelation 20:7-10; also cf. Zech 14:16-19). By the time Matthew 25:31 comes to pass, the saints had already decided to follow Christ and our choice has been fully solidified / actualized forever.For additional material that unpacks some of this, I'd recommend visiting the article below found on End Time Pilgrim. It's an interesting read. Hope this helps! endtimepilgrim.org/sheepgoat.htm
|
|
FX
Junior Member
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
Posts: 95
|
Post by FX on Sept 5, 2024 6:47:56 GMT
Shalom ICA, Merci for your imput. Very Very thorough explanation. Bravo! Blessings from France, FX
|
|
|
Post by Shelli on Sept 5, 2024 20:43:34 GMT
During the tribulation it was stated on here that they did not take the mark of the beast or worship the beast so the ones who survive the tribulation are Christians then? Do non believers not take the MOB either or worship the beast? I thought there were only two camps believers and non believers?
|
|
|
Post by midnightwatcher on Sept 5, 2024 23:10:16 GMT
During the tribulation it was stated on here that they did not take the mark of the beast or worship the beast so the ones who survive the tribulation are Christians then? Do non believers not take the MOB either or worship the beast? I thought there were only two camps believers and non believers? Hi Shelli, see my reply to you a few posts above, you might have missed it.
|
|
|
Post by Oro y Plata on Sept 6, 2024 3:37:41 GMT
Wow. Thank you for the excellent response midnightwatcher ! The article you linked was also very insightful, but the author describes the goats as the "self-willed rambunctious people who care little about spiritual things" and not necessarily those who are overtly wicked. He believes the overtly wicked are tares who are plucked and destroyed before the resurrection (Mat 13:30). The goats you described (evening news goats lol) appear to me quite wicked and work much iniquity. Perhaps we will not have much longer to wait before witnessing first hand the nature of who these goats are as they stand before the Righteous Judge.
|
|